interesting survey

[Bkwits]

Hi Patti,
Even though you may not change some opinions, you may influence others. I’m very glad that you feel you have ample resources for a serious illness or accident. It is almost impossible for most families to do that. I don’t have the answer to America’s health care dilemma, but I sure would hate to be out there dealing with insurance companies alone. How do you think we should treat those who don’t have or can’t get health insurance? Should doctors and hospitals be required to treat them? Are you saying the government should not be involved in healthcare, or are you saying government’s role should be limited?

I am interested in your position.
Barb

[TEMBO]

Marla;

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and your well thought our ideas. It makes good sense. You only have to leave America to know that although our system is not perfect and could use some help, the majority of the rest of the world is still coming to the States for their major medical needs. We are still Blessed.

Karen

[geebeebee]

Marla, you have some well-taken points as to the pros and cons of both types of systems. And I’m not necessarily on board with “socialized medicine” exactly as it exists elsewhere. The only point I would like to present you is that, in our current system, we DO pay for everyone’s healthcare, so we may as well set up a system that makes it more efficient, that quits breaking the bank of our government and our citizens.

Do you know what the poor without insurance do in our country when they have a minor ailment? They go to the emergency room, because they have to be treated there, at four or five times the cost of a normal office visit.

Do the hospitals eat that cost? No, unfortunately. They just keep escalating the costs (with double-digit cost increases every year for the last two decades, I believe) for paying customers and those with insurance. This is one of the major reasons we have horrible “bang for the buck” in our country. If, instead, we could let someone with a minor ailment go to a regular doctor, our healthcare load wouldn’t cost $400 every time one of these people gets a cold. As well, if someone could get an antibiotic from a doctor with a minor infection, they wouldn’t have to have a $50,000 surgery later on, when the infection becomes a severe medical issue, all just because they couldn’t afford to go to a basic doctor visit.

I think “fairness” is a relative term. If you are fortunate enough to want something above and beyond what is offered as a standard (private schools, nicer hospital rooms, more personalized medical care, etc.), that’s great, and you should consider yourself blessed to be able to do that, but not on my dime.

The purpose of government is for the greater good of the entire society, not for individuals; that is why we have public schools, and should have public healthcare. Having education available for everyone benefits everyone. It would be preposterous (in my opinion, of course) to say that people without children shouldn’t have to pay for schools, because having schools makes the entire country stronger. It makes its economy stronger, its understanding of things stronger, and its position in the world stronger. Basic education should not be based on how wealthy you are; and neither should your health.

Greg

[patti]

Marla,

You do a good job explaining things that *I’m* thinking. I’m all for those who want to pay for the services and use them, but don’t force me to do it.

Barb, we do not have “ample resources” if someone in my family were to get a serious illness. We have used some wisdom in making sure we can cover some medical expenses. We’ve saved and made sure we have no debt (including our home). We use wisdom in determining if someone needs to go to the doctor or if the issue can be handled with natural medicine. I have educated myself tremendously on the use of natural medicine because so much can be treated that way. For my healthcare, my husband has me seeing a naturapath. Seeing her twice a month isn’t cheap, but she is healing my body of complaints that my regular physician said were incurable. We have insurance other places where we could pick it up (ie high medical on car insurance, etc.). As frustrating as it is at times to not have health insurance we have made it our responsibility to take charge of our health in the hopes we won’t need it for anything major prior to being able to find someone to cover me. *If* we thought something serious was wrong with one of us (which happened to us over a year ago) we would go ahead and insure everyone but myself under a standard plan and put me into the insurance pool. We would do that BEFORE going to a doctor to really find out what’s wrong just from the standpoint of pre-existing condition clauses. And right now, there is a company that will give us group insurance as a self employed person but the coverage sucks for what we’d pay so we choose not to get it. So while the plans we have in place aren’t perfect, they will work until such time as we can get the coverage we want. And in the meantime, we are working behind the scenes politically to try and make changes where insurance companies can exclude coverage for a pre-existing condition without denying coverage totally if a person is willing to accept that condition. For me, I could care less if coverage were excluded for pancreatitis (not likely I’ll ever see that beast again) or gestational diabetes (or even regular diabetes for that matter). Some people would freak at not having diabetes covered but having taken care of any risk I’d have for developing it, we aren’t concerned. That’s a risk we’re willing to take. And quite frankly, if I became a diabetic I would treat it the same way I do most everything else, naturally.

Right now if someone doesn’t have insurance and they need to go to the hospital, they go and hospitals are required to treat them. I guess on some level that’s probably humane – although the expensive way to do things. Hospitals are required to treat these people. Serious longterm illnesses, they are not required to treat. But at least emergencies they are. I honestly don’t know the answer to that question. I think the way they are doing it now is probably the best way. At least until someone can wow me with some great solution. People who don’t have health insurance now and need major help use fund raisers that Marla talked about.

Yes, I am for limited government involvement. Like it or not, medicare is here to stay so I think getting rid of the horrendous waste would allow them to cover so much more. But alas, politicians on both sides of the aisle will never require that. *sigh* If we wasted money in our homes like these people do we’d all get chastised by the government!

What frustrates the bejeebies out of me is having my choice restricted and being forced to pay taxes for things that I won’t/don’t use.

I think Marla did a pretty good job of summing up exactly what I think. I am not near as good as she is with putting my words down.

This is already longer than it should be so I’ll go. Hope I answered your questions.

patti

[Jerry]

Patti …

I have stayed out of this for the most part but you manage to get my blood pressure up every time you try to make sense. Apparently, you and your husband are going to try to screw the health insurance business by applying for coverage AFTER you feel that something is seriously wrong but without disclosing it to them. Then will you drop your coverage after they pay thousands for your serious problem??? And, Lord help you if you had a real emergency. Would you ask the emergency squad to stop at the insurance agent’s office on the way to the hospital with your heart attack, stroke or aneurysm? While I am not for socialized medicine, I feel that the whole system is messed up and people like you are NOT helping the problem. Nuff said!!

Jerry

[Bkwits]

Patti,
You did a very good job in answering my questions in specifics. I understand your position a bit better now. I had wondered if they had the health insurance pool in your state. I checked out the Illinois ins. pool when I had trouble getting health insurance and it was terrible, but that was years ago. It probably hasn’t changed.
Thank you for your candid reply.
Barb

[geebeebee]

Fund raisers to let others pay for YOUR major problems when you could have afforded healthcare in the first place? Signing up for insurance AFTER finding out you have a serious issue?

I think we have found two of the reasons our healthcare system is in shambles: selfishness and lack of integrity.

You see, Patti, the term “insurance” infers that you are insuring against the UNFORESEEN. Do you buy car insurance AFTER you have a wreck? Do you buy homeowners insurance AFTER your house burns down? You’ll just let us suckers pay the tab our whole lives so you can hop in just when you need it? Unbelievably sad….and you were giving me a lecture on being a good American? Ha!

[geebeebee]

Sorry, Jerry, I kind of duplicated the essence of your post. Oh, well, maybe two will help drive the point home. ;>)

Greg

[TEMBO]

I am finished with this sight until it gets back to the important issues at hand.

What a sad state of affairs. A frighting example of where this country is headed with folks missing the big picture. Paper is patient, and so is this website.

Bye

[Jerry]

Grrrr …

Patti says, “What frustrates the bejeebies out of me is having my choice restricted and being forced to pay taxes for things that I won’t/don’t use.” Let me ask you Patti … which of the following do you not use and resent paying for?? Library services, your local elections, your jail, your sheriff, your juvenile services, your land use planning department, your fire and police services, your local street maintenance, your parks and recreation department, your city water facilities, your public schools and your community colleges. All are paid through taxes.

Finally, your constant pushing of natural remedies gets tiring to me. You say, “We use wisdom in determining if someone needs to go to the doctor or if the issue can be handled with natural medicine.” Apparently, you are able to play God and know when something is serious enough to use a physician. Or, do you go to the Chinese medicine man when it is more serious?? I am confused. For me, I just know that if I have a chest pain, I don’t have a clue what it is and need professional help to determine the cause. I would not waste my time and maybe my life trying to cure it myself. Natural products IN CONJUNCTION with medical care MAY be helpful but must be used carefully. In my personal opinion, you are way to quick to tell new people on this forum to use natural products before they seek counsel at a Center of Excellence. There, I got that off my chest.

I could go on, but my blood pressure is rising again.

Jerry

[patti]

Greg, you enjoy twisting the things I say or at least thinking the worst. For clarity, we will not just get coverage and drop it when we “don’t need it.” We’re very aware of our health and if we think we’re getting to a point in life where we should get it, we will. And BTW, we didn’t get coverage over a year ago. It is something we contemplated at the time when we were looking into some health issues. But alas, we still couldn’t find me coverage. This has been a very frustrating post for me and I am having a hard time clarifying a very complicated subject. And no, if we have an emergency we will not stop by the insurance office on the way to the hospital. We will suck up the costs. Until we can find an insurance company that will take me we have very limited choices. Do you understand that? I CAN’T get insurance. But at least we’re willing to take responsibility for our own bills and not ask you to pay for them. And if we end up with a 100,000 bill we’ll be paying for it the rest of our lives. But we will NEVER ask someone else to pay it for us. Integrity? Integrity is not robbing from Peter to give Paul what Peter has too. That, is theivery.

I lectured no one on being a good “American.”

As for fund raisers, I was simply agreeing that Marla is right regarding how people raise funds for the care they need. Please check out the multitude of illness bulletin boards (leukemia site is a good place to start) where people are holding fund raisers for BMT’s, SCT, etc. Would I do it? No. But take their right away to do it? NO. It’s usually called charity. Or in bible terms, love.

Jerry, to answer your question – library services, juvenile services, public schools and community colleges,land use planning department. Nor are those services we ever plan on using. I have no trouble paying for elections stuff, fire, police, water, etc. I do have a problem with our water rates being raised 50% and our sewer rates going up 68% next month. Necessary to increase services sometimes, sure – that much? No way. I did not say all taxes were bad. I simply said I don’t like my freedom to choose taken from me.

I won’t even get into schools, etc. This is not the place.

You know, lest you think we like the position we’re in, we do not. It is not optimal. But we have been put in a position (by the insurance companies I might add) of no one covering us. We are not sitting on our duffs waiting for someone to rescue us. We are seeking alternatives that will allow me coverage. So when you want to become an insurance company and cover me fully, let me know. Or even with an exclusion. We’d take that.

Jerry, if you don’t like natural medicine then don’t read anything I write about it. Ya know, some folks out there do want to know about it. I fully agree with using natural medicine with traditional medicine. But for those of us that choose the alternative mostly, leave us alone. If you don’t like, don’t use it. If you don’t want to read about it, then don’t. No one is forcing you. No one asked you to cure yourself. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. That is your choice.

We do not play God. But we’re certainly trusting God to give us a certain amount of wisdom for when we need to suck it up and spend the $1500 a month on health insurance for our family (assuming I still can’t find suitable insurance). And we will never rob you to pay that either, rest assured.

[Jack_dup1]

Jerry,
This is part of a private E-mail I sent Patti which echo’s what you were saying, granted, not as well as you did. She didn’t understand what I meant by ‘preachy’

I realize that you are tyring to help, but sometimes the health
> angle has almost turned to preaching. I worry because a lot of
> people who are new to the site, who have just received this horrible
> scary diagnosis, are looking for miracles, they can’t believe this
> is happening to them or their loved one. They take what we say very
> seriously. I am not against natural remedies, but some of these
> people have very little time to experiment and need quick treatment.
> Cercainly you know that you “Chinese” doctor is no sure thing, but
> he offers hope, surely there is someone that can say, yes, I was
> cured by this man, not that his quality of life was improved, I have
> no doublt that can happen, but to be CURED of MDS is a giant
> statement and shoud not be stated lightly. Does your MILs BMB back
> up what you have said regarding a cure or the sign of remission, it
> just seems to early to make such statement. I kind of laugh because
> you guys say get a Chinese doctor like my Father in law say’s get a
> Jewish lawyer, they are not all good.

Does this mean that there is no MDS in China?
Jack

[geebeebee]

Patti, I’ll buy what you said about your willingness to be responsible for your debts. But what if, God forbid, you have a horrible accident (not possibly something that you could have foreseen) that causes you to have a $1 million hospital bill (and believe it or not, it isn’t that hard for a serious hospital stay to add up to that)?

Yes, most likely it won’t happen, and most likely I won’t total my car today, but it could happen. Your finances are none of my business, but I’m assuming you wouldn’t be able to pay a $1 million bill (I know I wouldn’t be able to). That $1 million would have to be sucked up by the rest of the country’s healthcare costs, even if you had the best of intentions to pay it back, but couldn’t. Does that make any sense? In essence, we have kind of a national healthcare, only the people who are responsible take the brunt of the cost.

That’s what I mean by saying it is very risky to not have insurance, if it can possibly be afforded, even on a perfectly healthy person, because anything can happen, and it would be horrible to have that hanging over your head the rest of your life.

I don’t know about where you live, but in my state, if no one will insure you, then the state has to. There are programs for “non-insurable” people. I know it is expensive, that is what I’m railing against in the status quo, and it’s ridiculous that it is that expensive, and it’s forcing American families by the millions to forego it. And it’s an endless cycle, as their costs are absorbed into the system for all of us to pay.

By the way, to people upset with me (us?) for arguing this topic and how it’s not appropriate, I feel I have earned my stripes here, and I post on this board with the utmost of empathy and respect for those suffering from this disease. Even though my mother died over a year ago, I still read the posts daily hoping to see good news and offer support to those who gave me support in my family’s hard times.

Even though we may have disagreements, there is no disagreement that we want this disease to be stopped in its tracks, and I will always pull for all of you and your loved ones to defeat it.

Greg

[patti]

Greg,

You are absolutely right. No one can forsee tomorrow and yep, we could end up with a million dollar bill. I see mom’s bills for her MDS transfusions every month. They’re huge. And yep, I’m paying everytime I go to the doctor for the people who can’t/don’t pay. But something you said is so important.

“only the people who are responsible take the brunt of the cost”

To me it makes more sense to teach more personal responsibility then it does to require the masses to take care of those who won’t/don’t/can’t. Personal responsibility is a part of integrity.

Does that change what I believe regarding who should pay for our healthcare? No. I think there are answers other then the government paying for everyone’s healthcare through confiscatory taxes. You and I will always have to agree to disagree on this subject. Because as I said earlier, nothing I say or you say will change how either of us thinks about this issue. My preference for some sort of change would be some sort of requirement on health insurance companies. Yep, that’s regulation, but it doesn’t squelch personal freedoms to choose.

The only “state” coverage here is for people who make very little money. They’d laugh us out the door. There is a state insurance pool for people who are turned down for coverage but it is awful. Not only is it terrible coverage (because they can do that) it’s way expensive. We’d be better off sucking the risk up ourselves. In business, they call it “self insurance.” But that is why we take so seriously taking care of ourselves. It might not be perfect, but if it helps prevent serious illness until we can get someone to insure me, then we’ve succeeded in what we set out to do. That’s also why we’re working behind the scenes politically. Trying to exact change in the system. This seems more productive to me. It’s a crap shoot in some ways. But the best one we’ve got right now. Quite frankly, we tell people God is our insurance for the moment.

Having been a licensed insurance agent in four lines of insurance (including health) for five years I feel like I at least have a good handle on who to talk to and write to. And I feel for anyone having to deal with insurance without an insurance background because even being licensed it’s hard for me to grasp some of it.

I appreciate that you can at least see the position that we are in at the moment. And perhaps some day we will both be wowed by someone who has some great answer to this problem.

Patti

[Jack_dup1]

Below is an E-mail I received from my son regarding the posts, I thought was worth sharing.
Jack

Dude, that health care discussion got pretty aggressive. What is amazing is that the initial mail was actually pretty neutral, for frig’s sake it was a study by Harvard – OK, it may be more liberal than Bob Jones or Billy Graham U, but it is kind of hard to say the place is full of morons, especially when they were asking doctors. Patti was the one who turned it into a McCarthy crusade – Greg went over the top, but I don’t blame him.

When I was in college I read that one of the great things Reagan did was help peaople understand that government isn’t good at running things. The crazy thing is that Reagan was generally right – but there are exceptions to every rule. Health care is one area. The idea that market economics alone can run the health system is the stupidest thing I can imagine. Supply and demand stuff just don’t work right when we are talking about people’s health. Telling people to “Take responsibility” is insane – what the f**k does that mean?? The fundamental question is this: how much is the health – the life – of a family member worth? This isn’t like buying a flat screen TV, where you can pick and choose, buy or not. Once you realize the answer to the question is “priceless”, it doesn’t take long to realize that supply and demand economics weren’t really intended to cover priceless things. If something priceless is fundamentally tied into your belief system (like, for example, the idea that living is a good thing to keep on doing), but your bank account is not bottomless, what are you supposed to do? The health care system right now takes advantage of this contradiction, and the result is that, because humans will pay any amount in the hope of getting well (something you wouldn’t do with a TV), Americans end up underwriting a wasteful system – for a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with health care.

When Clinton (actually, it was mostly Hillary) introduced a proposal for universal health care, Sven wrote an article the same week called “Why the Clinton Health Care Proposal Failed” – kind of like Nostradamus. His main argument was that there is too much money in Health Care to ever get a solid majority in Congress to vote for anything that would really change the system. Now, Sven may be a leftist weenie and the Clinton plan wasn’t that good – but the main problem with health care reform – or why it is so hard to do – is the same today as it was then. People like Patti irritate the hell out of me because they act like saying something isn’t working – when it isn’t – is unpatriotic. Of course, liberals are morons for a lot of reasons – for example, thinking that being religious is bad, thinking that most businesses are evil, thinking that everything in other countries is better, or thinking that government can fix everything. But conservatives drive me nuts with the “you don’t like it, get out” stuff – not too mention using biblical quotes as the only supporting evidence to prove a case.

Uff, I feel better now. By the way, I liked the Catholic joke. Ada didn’t.

[Author]

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